Hi Garey, just a word about the date, they are only a bit over 100 years old.
The two books often got confused and the first became known as the 1850 Edition and the second as the 1001 Edition according to the number of tunes in each, rather than the date they were published.
"Chief" O'Neill as he was known, was head of the Chicago Fire Dept, or maybe it was the Police.
A key collection and great resource.
John p
Hi Lisa,
--I'm assuming we are talking about actually sounding the fretted notes and melodies, rather than just tapping a stick on the soundbox with no notes like a drum rhythm.
I think that something differnt altogether is happening with fiddlesticks. The stick player is bouncing the sticks off the strings that are not being bowed or fretted and so is simply sounding out a rhythm on open drones. This is why it only works (or works best) on cross-tuned fiddles. You can watch the stick player in that clip of Tom Eriksen you posted move from playing the bass open strings to the trebble open strings as Eric moves his fretting and shuffle bowing from the trebble strings to the bass strings in Part B. I've seen this pattern of movement on other YouTube clips of fiddlestick playing. The stick player watches where the fiddler is fretting and bowing and simply dances on the open strings that the fidder is not using. It took me a while to spot what was going on but once you see it and try it out you get the idea of how it all works.
So with the MD you can do the same thing - ie one person bounce the sticks off the drones while the other playes the melody with a noter and strums as normal but with a focus on the melody strings. There doesn't seem to be any clash between pick andstick on the drones, so the MD player doesn't need to avoid the drones.
Robin
Yes Robin the beater/straw does 'work the same way'- except that fiddles are designed to be either bowed or plucked (pizzicato) to make a strong sound- they have such small sound boxes and short string lengths. I don't think you can get enough volume and oomph by only beating straws on the fiddle without bowing as well. But with a dulcimer/zither/hammerdulcimer you can! Thus for fiddlesticks on a fiddle you really need two people.
BUT- some fiddle players can get a good effect with bouncing their bow in a percussive way as though it was a beater- but if you watch them they are actually drawing the bow a little while they are bouncing, so they can get the strings to sound. If they did it without a hair bow, with just a stick, I wonder how much effective tone and sound they could get. --I'm assuming we are talking about actually sounding the fretted notes and melodies, rather than just tapping a stick on the soundbox with no notes like a drum rhythm.
Great clips!
I love the way the stick player uses those bodhran style Celtic rhythms on the fiddle.When I played the sticks last night I was thinking about how I would play bodhran to the tune.
I understand what you are saying Lisa about using a striker toplay the tune on MD or other zither - that looks like quite a differnt concept. We've had a go here today though at one person playing the tune noter/drone while a second sits opposite in courting dulcimer style and beats outa bohdran style rhythm on the drone strings. It seems to work on MD pretty much the same way it does on fiddle. 
Robin
On a dulcimer, this is called beating straws or using a striker . Obviously on the fiddle it's called 'fiddlesticks' or beating straws. Can't really call it fiddlesticks on a dulcimer though. It's a very old and traditional technique for both fiddles and dulcimer/zithers. I have enjoyed watching Bruce Greene & Loy McWhirter doing it with fiddle in their concerts.
On fiddle, you need someone fretting notes and bowing , while someone else beats with either one or two straws. On a mtn dulcimer or other zither-like instrument, it's not bowed so you don't need a 2nd person- the person playing can fret with one hand and beat one or two straws or use the striker with the right hand instead of a pick. Some folks use broom straws or chopsticks, or either bamboo or steel thin knitting needles.
Here's my favorite example of using a striker on a 'zither/dulcimer-type instrument'- this one is being used on an epinette:
Here's a classic fiddlesticks example:
I was over at a friend's cottage last night for a session with our string band "Snakewood". I was given a gift of a couple of goose quills for my Galax dulcimer that my friend Nick found on the Mawddach Estuary by the Toll Bridge where he works.
A few weeks ago I fitted a set of Wittner Finetune-Pegs to my partner's fiddle (an 8.5:1 planetary geared peg that looks just like a wooden fiddle peg) to encourage and help her to learn cross-tuning. She cross-tuned last night to AEAE to play "Cripple Creek" and, looking at the two Galax quills I'd just been given, I realised that I had a set of fiddlesticks 
So we had our first ever go at "fiddle stickin'" 
What a great toe tapping sound!!!!! The consensus was "That's definately going in the band's set!!!"
So now I'm wondering if the technique would work well for noter/drone fast fiddle tunes on mountain dulcimer 
Watch this space! 
If you've not come across "fiddlesticks" before then hereis a lovelyexample - just image working something like this on mountain dulcimer in noter/drone - I think that has to be worth a try!:
Robin
It doesn't sound like sawmill tuning, my guess is try Last Chance tuning. fCFCD.
Paul
Uh oh, i guess i;m in trouble now. 
John Henry said:
Oh Strumelia, you fickle fing !!!
There's me thinking that you loved the mt'n dulcimer !
JohnH
Hi Strumelia,
Do you know what tuning Eriksen is using in that video? I've been searching for it on line but not found it. At a guess I would say he is in e,B,E,A,D but about 10 cents sharp on that?
Robin
Oh Strumelia, you fickle fing !!! There's me thinking that you loved the mt'n dulcimer !
JohnH
Robin,
As you know, I've been working on that Eriksen banjo version of Sugar Baby (also see the other threads here on FOTMD re: Red Rocking Chair/Sugar babe). He uses an old tuning which is nice. Karen Dalton did a nice banjo version of Red Rocking Chair as well.
I'm glad you are exploring the wonderful uniqueness that is ...banjo. It's a lifelong love affair.
Hi Robin, good to see you are having so much fun. It's been fascinating watching you progress
Tim Erikson started out in a band called Cordelia's Dad and has a 10 minute version of Sugar Babe on their album 'Comet' if you can find it.
Cath Oss, another ex member now lives in England and plays with her husband under the name 'Cath and Phil Tyler', also well worth a listen. They have a version of Long Time Traveller that I like.
john p
Thanks Randy,
It is great to try something new and go through those frustrations and triumphs of learning. I think you are right in challenging your students. All you can give them is challenge and inspiration - if they are going to be successful then the motivation and hard work has to come from them!
I'm really enjoying the banjo - I know so little about the instrument and its music that each new page is a wonder
Strumelia send me a link last night to a video of a guy called Tim Erikson playing a small fretless banjo in Time Square.
I'd never heard the banjo played with such a driving, constantrhythm before, and such a full sound! Now that was both inspirational and a challenge!!!!!!! So I sat down this lunchtime and had a play around with that driving sound to see what I could come up with andhad a go atCluck Old Hen (coz there's not too many notes) to see if I could start to find something like that style.I was just messing around with the tune and trying to concentrate on rhythm - so much so that there's a couple of bits of melody that just sort of appeared and I don't think I could repeat 
Robin I admire your courage learning a new instrument....esp banjo as it's quirky. I've never given music lessons so forget how it was but recently my son Bill and my nephew Dawson started playing the banjo & all the sudden I'm giving...as in free... : )...banjo lessons. Bill has the advantage b/c he knows the fiddle tunes & the genre but even he has trouble making it go. I think the things I show them are a little too hard....but better than too easy huh?
Sounding great....your updates are interesting...thx!
Hi FolkFan,
Tha second tune was supposed to be Shady Grove! Those tunes were recorded 3 months ago when I first got my banjo. I've had a lot of help since then. Strumelia has been great at helping to point me in the right direction bytryingto show me the differernce between guitar and clawhammer banjo!!!! So I'm trying to play more melodically using open tunings and not based around chords. I've just re-recorded Shady Grove and I'm working on a really simple version of Arkansas Traveller hoping to get a more melodic feel to my playing. Still, it is early days yet!
Robin
Thanks Lisa,
I've just been watching Clarence Ashley on YouTube. I've heard so many modern ballad versions recently that I'd completely lost sight of the way Clarence played the tune. I think I could possibly work out most of his licks and phrasing although the guitar is getting in the way a bit. He has such subtle hand movements - it's a joy to watch!
I have been getting some coaching from Nick. I'll work out a tune for myself and then take it to Nick and he'll show me how to make it better with different fingering, drop thums, hammer-ons, pull offs, etc - or he may move the rhythm around a bit for me. We've not actually worked on the cuckoo together yet.
I seem to be able to get a lot of different tones from my banjo by moving the rag around inside it and by playing in different positions. It is only a very cheap instrument - the bottom of the range. When I buy another I'd like to go for a slightly wider neck - but that's all I'd change.
Your banjo playing is really sounding good Robin. Most people take several years to get to where you are now. You must be getting help from Rick!
Most old-time players consider Clarence Ashley's banjo/singing version to be 'the gold standard', but of course it's good to have your own version in the end.
That banjo you are playing has a really nice tone.
Well I've had my banjo for 3 months - so I thought I would record something this afternoon. One of the tunes I've been working on is The Cuckoo. I've heard lots of different versions of the tune so I've just been stealing bits from here and there. The only problem I have is that it isa song, not a fiddle tune - and I don't sing 
But it just didn't sound right playing it without the words - so I gave it a go 
Playing clawhamer banjo and singing at the same time is a whole new ball game !!!!!!!!
The recording was on my Zoom H2 on a mic stand in my lounge while standing up playing and singing. Well this is certainly an "adventure" with a new instrument coz I'm well out of my comfort zone on this one
Robin
It's all about the journey, and it sounds like you're on your way. Years from now, you'll have years of experience.
Around here, Old Time music has gotten infected with Bluegrass disease, making a lot of people play the songs too fast. It's not really limited to banjo,though. I've seen mandolin and guitar players affected. Even some Mt. dulcimer players have gotten it. Let your friends keep the pace, is sounds like they still remember when it was dance music.
Paul
I had a tough hour last night.
A friend from down the road (fiddle and banjo player) knocked on the door yesterday and asked if I wanted to go down to his place to play banjo with him on fiddle. Another friend, Chris, turned up with his mandolin and it was a case of "Right - let's see how far you've got with that thing!".
I opened with "Old Joe Clark" and at the end of the playing the tune through a few a few times with them I looked up expecting high praise indeed 
All that came back was "TOO FAST" "Bloody banjo players - way too fast!!!!!!" Now, one of the first things that Nick said to me a couple of week's ago whentold himI wanted to learn banjo was "Watch your speed on banjo. It is really easy to play too quick at sessions". That lesson has now been learned, and I can expect an "I told you so!" when I next see him
Chris then asked me "What tunes don't you know on that thing?" Well, after a couple of week's playing I only have 3 or 4 tunes, so the list of stuff I don't know is pretty long! So the two of themthen proceeded to play tunes I have yet to learn giving me a couple of minutes or so to re-tune and work out some of the phrases before kicking off. It was a struggle to say the least
but just what I needed really.
The double C tuning capo'd+ 2 to the key of D (aDADE) is giving me the most trouble at present. The first 3 strings are the same as "sawmill" capo'd +2 (aEADE) in A minor. In A minor you play the C scale but in D you play the D scale on the same strings. Those first two strings are so close (just a tone apart) that working out the best pattern for a tune is quite a challenge as there are so many options! Also, having chromatic frets means that 4 out of every eleven notes are definately wrong
I'm not actually thinking about scales when I play - in fact, I try not to "think" of anything at all, just hear the tune and let everything else just happen. I found that I got on best at picking up tune phrases on the banjo last night with my eyes shut, or at least when not looking at my hands. Whereas with dulcimer and dobro I definately use visual clues (I'm going to have to have a play around with that!!!!)
This is certainly turning into an "adventure" with another instrument!
Robin
I was VERY tempted to buy a nylon strung fretless as my first banjo - and I don't think that there is any doubt that I will have one at some stage. I had aquick playwith one before making my decision to opt for a standard banjo as a starter.
I'll look up those Doc Boggs tracks.
Thanks
Robin, that dropthumb teaching video is very well done- I'm glad you found it, he gives great advice and it's very clear!
He's an excellent teacher.
Paul what you said about Pete Seeger is fascinating. I found the very same thing to be true for me- that learning/teaching dropthumb later on in one's playing is not ideal.
Robin- try watching/listening to Doc Boggs on banjo- it's pretty inspiring and yummy. I have a friend who learned nylon-strung fretless playing by listening to his playing and she sounds fabulous . Wish I could play like her!
Thanks Paul,
I've been working from this YouTube clip - for me, as a beginner,it is the best explanation and skill breakdownI have seen (it is lesson 2 for beginners - lesson 1 was the basic stroke):
I've been working on these exercises for just over a week so I'm starting to get up to playing speed. I'm now looking at where and when I can use the technique by playing around with slotting it into the tunes I already play.
Only another 10,000 hours of practice and I'll be able to do it really well !
Robin
When Pete Seeger wrote his banjo book, in the late 1940's, he taught the basic stroke, and added drop thumb in a later chapter. But some years later, he said that was not the best way to teach it, and that he now thinks drop thumb is best taught early. The real key is to do it as slowly as is necessary to do it correctly. Speed comes at it's own-well, speed. Rushing it is counter productive in any learning.Smooth and in time, as slow as needed.
Paul
That's exactly what I was trying to convey! Break up the standard strumming structure and throw in syncopated pauses, dropthumbs, hammer/pulls, and slides...they are the tools to make your playing come alive and be really banjo . Every time you start feeling too comfortable with doing something the same way, break it up again with something new like drop thumbing on a different string or using a left hand pluck note in a syncopated rhythm place, etc. Keep shaking things up and you will start automatically incorporating the little tricks and tools in to your normal play without having to think about it much. It will make your playing much more interesting and alive. Keep up the good work!
If you choose crooked/funky tunes to do this practice with, it will force you to break out of the comfortable bump-a-ditty pattern, which will be even more helpful. I had to do this. Actually, what I did was lock away my fretted banjos after two years of playing and force myself to play fretless banjo only for about a year, and boy that was the biggest thing that broke me of my over-dependence on banjo chord strumming. 
I doubt you would ever need to take such drastic action as I had to. 
I've had a bit of a drop thumb breakthough
I was playing around with the drop thumb motion and thought of "You Are My Sunshine" - so I used that tune as an exercise to practice the movement on the spaces between the phrases. Sort of "You are my...boom-chinga-linga-chinga-ling. My only.. boom-chinga-linga-linga-ling." So I had that going OK last night and was really cheesily over doing it !
This lunchtime I had a go at "Pigs Foot" trying to apply your "skating and skipping" by halving the number of right hand strikes and using more hammer-ons pull-offs and slides. After playing it through a few times I realised that I'd thrown in a drop thumb pattern at the start of Part B without really thinking about it So all that practicing of the movement without actually knowing how to fit it into the music has paid off! I'm now starting to understand where it fits - although it looks like my subconscious mind is already way ahead of my conscious reasoning (as usual !!!!!)
Robin
Robin you are very observant!
Dwight doesn't believe in teaching beginners to drop thumb much. In fact, he is the one who discouraged me from incorporating drop thumb as a beginner- which is exactly part of what caused me big problems a year later as my playing improved.
Because of that, I always teach my beginner students drop thumb right from the beginning, with good results.
Dwight is all about rhythm, and he's one of my favorite players to listen to. :)
In his classes and teaching, Dwight doesn't touch on drop thumbs much if at all. But if you watch Dwight playing banjo in a non-teaching setting, you'll find he drop thumbs regularly (you can hear them more than see them)- but it's always really hard to see anything about what his individual fingers are doing because his hands are like big HAMS! lol! His fingernails are like horse hooves !
Hey thanks!
I've just been watching some of Dwight's posts on YouTube. I think I may get a couple of his videos. Great rhythms!!!
The wear pattern on his banjo heads looks like a big giveaway on how he gets his sound? I didn't see him drop thumb at all ?
Robin
Cool, Robin!
For old-time Appalachian tunes, Dwight Diller's play does something for me. Although I don't own a banjo, I have 2 of his cd's and 2 dvd's; one of the dvd's is instructional and it's about rhythm.
